A mod poll

[liars-dance.livejournal.com]

Okay... There are apparently rumours circulating about some crusade against non-friends locked communities involving slash fiction and Viggo. Too many folk with too much time on their hands, I say... But I've been alerted to some concerns that rugbytackle might be targetted and that LJ might be forced to close it. I have no idea if any of this is true - or if locking the community (if indeed that is possible with 400+ existing members) will prevent anything that might happen from happening... But,

[Poll #729378]

Please add any further comments you might have in a reply to this post. I'd be very grateful!

Thanks,
Heath

Comments

[fawsley.livejournal.com]

I think I need to know a bit more about what the threat is before I can vote. Is this some weird slash brigade getting their chastity belts in a twist?

[alex-quine.livejournal.com]

Is it possible to have sight of the source of your rumours, ie. what exactly have you heard and how? Is this prompted by the actor and/or his representation or by fans who disapprove of fanfiction?

I'm new to this (apologies if there are any stupid questions in what follows) and am presuming that members-locked communities would require a reader to join LJ before accessing the materials, in which case it would become rather like the old gambling laws in the UK where folk had to 'join' a club before being able to gamble. This is putting another step infront of the potential reader and if someone didn't want to join LJ it would be a block. Do we know how many readers there are for Rugbytackling right now who aren't 'members'? Also if the community was members only, which would presumably block casual discovery readers, who fall into the site without necessarily knowing of its existence beforehand, would there still be ways of providing non-blocked signposts?

[wyldestarr.livejournal.com]

Oh fer cryin out loud...slash doesn't hurt anyone any more than het hurts anyone. *sighs* From this long-time lurker, however, going friends/members only isn't going to kill me. Means the mods have a bit more work though, going through member requests and how they want to review member requests (I require referrals for one of my comms), not to mention all the disclaimers about joining and what is found within. I don't know what the fuss is right now, so I'd say just track the conflict and if it appears to be escalating, then lock down the comm, which is actually really easy to do.

You already have: This community features Real-Person Slash (RPS). If you don't know what that is, we recommend reading AlterNet's story about it before you proceed any further. By reading or participating, you agree not to threaten or harass any members of the community. So you should be able to add in something about how 'by requesting membership, you accept that this is a slash community for the express purpose of sharing fictional works and is in no way real or implying that any characters, fictional or living, are in any way construed to have any characteristics or sexual preferences as alluded to, implied, or downright screamed out loud herein.'

Something like that, anyway. ^_^ Best of luck with it. :) I don't have any VigBeans to add to the gloriousness yet, but am working on writing some real slash, so who knows.

[brigantine.livejournal.com]

Telesilla's got something about it here: http://telesilla.livejournal.com/434404.html

It's not Viggo raising the fuss.

Some French floozy's got her knickers in a twist over evil people like us saying Untrue Things about Viggo (who she apparently deems too weak and defenseless to handle such things), such as insinuating that Viggo might be open enough and human enough to snog a mate, and she's ranting that we're corrupting innocent children who stumble across us accidentally (hello, I stumbled across extremerestraints.com accidentally, and she's worried about US??) and she's attempting to raise a stink.

I don't know how far she can get. She's an idiot, and probably boring at parties.

[shalom]

Hey, you corrupted me, but I'm not complaining.

[seleneheart]

When a person is a celebrity, they have to prove actual malice to prevail in a libel case, and they have to claim that what they wrote is true, under US law. What that means for the owners of LJ is hard to say. Some people will avoid the cost and bother of a lawsuit, even if they have the advantage.


The issue of preventing children from access is a tougher one. I'm a parent and I monitor what my kids do on line, for a mutlitude of reasons, but obviously some people won't.

It is far too easy to lie about you age when you are on line and I don't know that locking the community would solve the problem.

My suggestion is that you have a formula disclaimer that every poster must use, similar to what's on rugbytackling.com, subject to their post being removed for failure to comply. We should also probably have a different one for FPS, to avoid copyright problems. (Which those laws are far more strict in the US than the libel laws are).

We can't police the internet on behalf of parents . . .

I found LJ through rugbytackle, and it's been so much more for me than just a place to read Viggo/Sean smut. I would hate to deny anyone else the opportunity by locking the comm.

[moldava.livejournal.com]

Right, so the info is apparently spreading from here:
http://loeil-et-la-main.cultureforum.net/viewtopic.forum?p=1400#1400
(thanks to telesilla and apologies for her for picking a link in a locked post in her journal)

The witch-hunt *preens* starts apparently from Viggo fans.

I am not sure how LJ would respond, but based on the terms of service (and if you read them carefully they basically state that they are not in any way responsible for journals contents) they will not delete a journal but - quote -

Should any Content that you have authored be reported to LiveJournal as being offensive or inappropriate, LiveJournal might call upon you to retract, modify, or protect (by means of private and friends only settings) the Content in question within a reasonable amount of time, as determined by the LiveJournal staff. Should you fail to meet such a request from LiveJournal staff, LiveJournal may terminate your account. LiveJournal, however, is under no obligation to restrict or monitor journal Content in any way;

As I see it, we can wait and see ;)

[telesilla.livejournal.com]

Oh I don't mind you linking at all. The post was unflocked until I realized that this chick was trying to actually shut people down, and I went ahead and friended both you and liars_dance in case you hadn't seen it.

Actually the whole thing along with some arguments is in waenelin's LJ--she's the owner of the French site-- in a public post (http://waenelin.livejournal.com/8020.html).

[nurseowens.livejournal.com]

I happen to know the person who's launching the war against any slash involving Viggo (fortunately, not personally).
She joined lots of communities, clearly without reading about the content and was then appalled by what we wrote. She then contacted PP and tried to get them all in a twist about RPS, which didn't happen and now she's cross with everyone...
At the height of this trouble I thought about making switch_bottoms members only as well, but then decided not to.

I'm sure LJ will kindly ask us to close it before they delete it....

[telesilla.livejournal.com]

If I'd known that she was such a nutcase, I'd have kept the mocking confined to the chat room. Seriously, what an idiot! First of all the idea that no one at Perceval Press has ever heard of slash is insane. The actors KNOW. Their people KNOW. These are people with access to insanely good lawyers, not some innocent off the street. They do NOT need the help of well meaning but stupid fans.

Sorry, but this is such a peeve of mine. Slash has been going on for over 30 years now. The entertainment industry? KNOWS.

[telesilla.livejournal.com]

Ya know, I'm not sure about this. I know something about this was mentioned in my now flocked post (http://telesilla.livejournal.com/434404.html), but even my source wasn't sure of the situation. I've added both you, liars_dance and moldava as friends so you can see what eenoogje says.

Looking at the two relevant FAQ Questions, 107 (http://www.livejournal.com/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=107) and 112 (http://www.livejournal.com/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=112) the comm might be considered a grey area. The thing to remember here is that even hard core visual porn, provided everyone is of age--not a problem with the pairing on this comm--is considered to have artistic or literary value and doesn't meet the legal definition of "indecent" as determined by the Miller Test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test). Text porn is even less likely to get the boot because it's almost impossible to prove that it doesn't have some literary value, and no one wants to spend the time and money arguing over the literary value of legal porn written by people who aren't making a profit.

Having said all that, be aware that a) I am not a lawyer, and b) LJ Abuse has been known to take the easiest route with complaints instead of the right one. I don't know who you would write to, possibly the Abuse Team, but if you do have doubts it might be a good idea to ask for an official opinion.

Technically, I don't think we're doing anything wrong; which is why I leave my smut unlocked on my LJ. I also think that flocking things is an absurd, cosmetic detail which does nothing at all to keep minors from reading anything they want. But that's me.

I will suggest that anyone who archives their fic only on LJ might want to back it all up, but you do that anyway. Right?

[caras-galadhon.livejournal.com]

I also think that flocking things is an absurd, cosmetic detail which does nothing at all to keep minors from reading anything they want.
Chiming in to agree with you here. I'm relatively against flocking whole comms, and generally decline from posting anything in them (for various reasons). This fear of being punished whips through the fanfiction community, what, every couple months? I have as of yet to see it come to much. This latest round sounds like a nuisance but ultimately a tempest in a teapot.

[smutcutter.livejournal.com]

If it means anything, I have been watching rumors like this circulate about most slash for a very long time. Thankfully due to the freedom of speech, there is very little anyone can do - remember the Harry Potter slash scare?

I say relax and keep things business as usual - these things usually blow over as fast as they come up.

[telesilla.livejournal.com]

Hee! Anyone remember the Blake's 7 scare? Slash is over 30 years old and I have yet to hear of lawsuits. The occasional C&D's yes, but we're on sound legal ground as far as copyrights are concerned.

[elouisa.livejournal.com]

Oh FFS! Why do people with too much time on their hands take it upon themselves to 'save' the objects of their affections through reporting our 'evil' fiction which is quite obviously causing much pain and discomfort to people. Honestly, I didn't know we were so fucking evil.

Past experience about LJ Abuse's responses to even minor complaints is delete now, answer questions later as it's easier on them than investigating things. If you are seriously worried that the mindless bint who is on this 'crusade' on behalf of Viggo will specify this journal then I'd lock it at least until the 'threat' clears.

However, I kind of think that Viggo himself won't mind. He's an artist and a creator. He appreciates creativity and what are we doing here if not creating. Or maybe I'm in cloud cuckoo land. :(

I'm sorry you are having to put up with this tripe. It just makes me tear my hair out at the reasoning behind the people doing this. Just what do they gain out of it? Why do they think it's their bloody job to save Viggo? The mind boggles. :(

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

I don't think Rugbytackle would ever have to be flocked completely. I hope not! I was a lurker for a while before I decided "this is too good," got an LJ and joined.

LJ FAQ 196 (http://www.livejournal.com/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=196) goes into rules for adult communities, though it's vague on the definition. I've never sat down and counted the romance-to-porn ratio on Rugbytackle, but there are G and PG stories on here. Worst-case scenario, Rugbytackle goes adult, and R/NC-17 fics are members-locked. I'd hate to see it happen, but it's better than deletion.

[irrlicht74.livejournal.com]

I don't know whether we should be bothered by those rumours or not, but I'd definitely rather have our rugbytackle community f-locked (if possible) than deleted.

And may I say, that I'm sick and tired of people who feel the need to bitch about slash, when all they needed to do is to just ignore it and let it "live in peace", so to say? Nobody is FORCED to read slash, right? And I think the "warning" in the community profile is a pretty good hint of what to expect in this particular community.

[milochka.livejournal.com]

If we took every anti-slash complaint/threat seriously, this comm would have died out years ago.

Same for the RT archive site -- periodically I get the "OMGZ WHY WON'T YOU THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" and "EWWWW, SICK, I'M GONNA COMPLAIN AND GET YOU SHUT DOWN!" emails. Unless such emails come directly from Viggo or Sean's lawyers (which so far hasn't happened) then they go straight to the trash bin.

I do understand that some people find slash "insulting" or objectionable or whatever, and that's cool. Different strokes for different folks. But it's not my job to filter the Internet for them.

[velcro-girl999.livejournal.com]

I'm shocked to see the objector and I have many of the same “friends”. However, I seriously doubt her argument holds much merit. I am sick to death of some delusional fangirl deciding she needs to get noticed by Viggo so she mounts a one woman crusade to protect his cyber virtue. *eye roll* Spare me. Is she new to the internet, because Slash certainly isn’t! Get a flipping life!!! If you’re easily offended then don’t drop by unknown LJs until you’ve been invited.

You ladies (and men?) keep doing what you’re doing. Your work is always entertaining and I love you all for brilliant writing! If you decide to friends-lock, just don't leave me behind. *makes puppy-dog eyes at the screen* Yeah, I know it's pathetic, but it's the best I can do! LOL

[nieninque121.livejournal.com]

Along the same lines of what alex_quine said above. From personal experience, I was wandering around rugbytackle long before I got myself an LJ account. So locking would definitely deter some anon-readers/fence sitters from becoming part of the community. I've met many wonderful people here, and I don't want to take away their chance of doing so.

Perhaps we can check with LJ authorities to see under what circumstances would they shut a comm down?

[lab-jazz.livejournal.com]

I think that it would be a shame if Rugbytackle became Friends locked. Like a lot of others I lurked on the outskirts for a long while before actually joining Livejournal and becoming a member of Rugbytackle. Hopefully Livejournal will be in communication prior to shutting it down and then you can review your options.
I don't know why people get so uptight about all this. Sex is a normal part of life and if your kids by some perchance stumble across a bit of 'slash' it's hardly going to be the undoing of them.
As for Viggo and Sean, I doubt very much that they are going to care a rats arse about a mob of middle aged lunatic women writing homoerotic stories about them. They will probably take it as a compliment.

[mistry89.livejournal.com]

I hope it is just another "I'm a nice fan and he could fall in love with me 'cos I am different and special" deluded individual.
The downside of locking comms is that "genuine" fans may miss out if they arrive on the scene late. I don't understand why people are so concerned that their children might stumble across something shocking - if one spends time with them and is aware of their interests, I think it is unlikely (and there will be an opportunity to explain the reasons behind the rules you set. Parenting should be done by us (the parents) not the entire world.
Sorry, I'll shut up now :)

[rotpunkt.livejournal.com]

I´m with milochka, lab_jazz and others - though I´m concerned about this crusade, I don´t want RT to be locked, after thinking about it for a while. I´ve lurked around here before I became a member, and I´m glad VigBean is still so very much alive, so I hope we can stay "open" for everyone. We shouldn´t allow them to put restrictions on us before it´s absolutely necessary. Though I can´t exactly judge the risk, I think it´s still too early to react with locking LJ.

[koulagirl666.livejournal.com]

I don't like locked communities, really, but I do know that there's an option to set the minimum post security to friendsonly.

I think there comes a point where locking slash becomes necessary to protect everyone involved - but I also think that maybe this could be solved by a (maybe intermediate) step of asking writers to use their discretion as to locking explicit slash.

[govi20.livejournal.com]

I don't think LJ would just close down RT, can't imagine that. So there'll be probably some time to lock it then, if it would come that far. I hope not, because just like the majority of people here is RT the reason I ever came to LJ.
I am European, but I definitely don't share the feelings of this French - I wannabe Viggo's keeper - girl. I honestly think Viggo would laugh about the whole thing and Sean would probably shrug it off. I say let's keep it open and see what happens.

[ladybluelove.livejournal.com]

Bothered by it only in the sense that who needs that BS.

I belong to yaoi_daily which is a locked comm and there are over 10,000 members and its still growing.

RT is like that in that it is already popular, and if anything you'll see an increase in members from the delurkers.

Good luck Heath. :)

[makamu]

Most people have already said what I wanted to say. I would only lock the community if there is a complaint from either the LJ admin team OR Viggo's or Sean's lawyers (then I would even agree to deleting it)

But this Frenchwoman's crusade just makes me sick to death. Yes, I have my fantasies about this guy as well, but I would never ever dream of acting like I am my star's bloody (excuse the language!) guardian!!

I have had enough of these dumb fans who cannot differentiate between fannishness and entitlement.

If you feel the need, Flock the comm, I will still be here after the storm *hugs*

[vs-mania.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, no-no-no! Please, do not make it friend-locked, pleeeease! I know many people who have no LJ account but want to read rygbytackle's stuff! It became very difficult nowadays to find many of good fics which were whritten in the last 2-3 years, many lj of former rugbytackers are closed... it'll be a tragedy...

[karelian]

Will you hate me if you admit I am laughing hysterically over someone warning PP about RPS and the idea of Viggo sitting down and reading five years' worth of stuff to see exactly what our fantasy versions of him get up to?

[liars-dance.livejournal.com]

*howls* No, I won't hate you - I think that's a wonderful image - and it makes me want to giggle somewhat too! *snogs you while you're here*

[galor5.livejournal.com]

I finally took the time to read what started all of this, and the comments posted here.

I can't get over someone stirring the pot (so to speak) and getting everyone up in arms over something they don't like.

I posted this in my own LJ, figured ya'll would get a kick out of it as well :-)


Whatever ya'll decide will be fine with me.