VigBean in two languages

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

The other day elintirn asked me in which points English fics are different to Japanese ones, then I thought it might be interesting to figure out the differences between them through VigBean, because my slash-interest is always fixated on VigBean, what else?

In the following sentences I would state something categorically, however, they are all my personal, very subjective opinions from my own reading-m/m-things-experience. What I'm telling you is entirely how I feel, not what they are like objectively, and I never insist they are/should be valid or universal ideas to everyone. Also I never mean to hurt or offend you or make personal attacks in any way.

I hardly read smut, BDSM or orgy things either in Japanese or English that I won't talk about them here, but it doesn't mean I'm allergic to them, I'm just less interested in them and I feel more comfortable with WAFF things. :)

In addition, since being a newcomer to LJ-VigBean fandom, I haven't read various VigBean in English as I have had in Japanese. But I have a quite long history as a m/m-novel-and-comic reader out of fandom things, and the following is 100% from my own personal views rooted in my personal experience as a slash reader!



The big difference between Japanese VigBean and LJ-VigBean is that in the former authors and readers have a strong tendency to fix each character's sex roles of the top and the bottom while in the latter characters usually swap their roles.

Talking about this fixed-roles phenomenon, it is commonly seen in any kind of m/m things in Japan as far as the authors are women, whether they are from fandoms or not. (It's funny that male authors doesn't take this fixed-roles system as far as I know...) It seems as if there is a tacit understanding that the top character should be a hero and the bottom his heroine: like the heroine usually doesn't play as a man in bed, the bottom has a tendency not to play manly enough (well at least for me it seems so) during making love, and even when he plays aggressively, it seems to be hardly beyond the realm of a woman wild in bed. Some authors seem to prefer to describe the bottom as a passive or a very feminized person in his manner of language and behaviour.

Hmm, I might declare the matter a bit stereotypically - I should refer that not all bottoms are feminized in (and out of) bed. There are lots of authors describe the bottom as a manly character, but in point of always being satisfied with his role as a woman naturally, Japanese top and bottom characters seem to reflect male and female sex roles directly in their relationship.

Well, get back to Japanese VigBean issue, the fandom is definitely reflected this sex-roles phenomenon to a greater or lesser extent. Never get me wrong, I don't mean Viggo or Sean is always feminized when he is fixed as the bottom. Generally they both are described as well-build and matured alpha male regardless of being the top or the bottom. But I don't deny that there are some who write the top manly while the bottom, well, not manly. To me it's not the matter of how they see Viggo or Sean, but how they think the top or the bottom should be. I mean, it seems like the image for the sex roles influences on each character.

Of course not all Japanese slashers fond of such a top-and-bottom-fixed tradition. There are some authors who prefer to let their characters alternate their sex roles and much more readers are very eager to read them, yet they are obviously a minority in Japanese slash culture. And this phenomenon naturally has brought a unique stream in Japanese VigBean: Vig/Bean fandom and Bean/Vig fandom. See MameMo or MoMame written by ayui for reference.


In our term Vig/Bean stands for Viggo comes to top while Sean bottom, and Bean/Vigo vice versa. These two fandoms are basically independent each other. Then, how do loyal Vig/Bean fans find Bean/Vig stuff? They would say, "Sean to top? Nonsense, that's not his image at all!" or "Could be, but not for my taste - how come Viggo to bottom?" Needless to say about loyal Bean/Vig fans likewise! For now only few authors write in both field and a much number of readers are playing both sides, as a minority as I mentioned above, but I assume that there are potential Vig/Bean-Bean/Vig writers exist in each field, because I sometimes see an author who writes Vig/Bean only but reads Bean/Vig, vice versa.

When you read Vig/Bean and Bean/Vig fics, soon you'll find that Viggo and Sean are described as quite different persons in each fandom. Daring to stereotype how they are like in both fandoms, here are my own ultimately personal opinions:

- Vig/Bean!Viggo: bisexual, aggressive, passionate, trickster, eccentric, self-confident, sociable, easygoing, progressive, romantic, single-minded, Vampire!Vig, Lucifer!Vig

- Vig/Bean!Sean: bisexual, seductive, selfish, single-minded, always-needs-company, sociable, conservative, Angel!Sean, Cat!Sean

- Bean/Vig!Viggo: straight, conservative, sensitive, eccentric, cat-like, sophisticated, thinker, loneliness, Cat!Vig

- Bean/Vig!Sean: straight, conservative, sensitive, quiet, honest, encompassing, simple, Dog!Sean


Look at the storytelling, there seems to be no difference between Japanese VigBean and LJ-VigBean. What told in Japanese VigBean is also told in LJ-VigBean, vice versa. We are surely sharing a sort of common sense based on Viggo and Sean. However, there are four things that I hardly see in Japanese VigBean (and for them I'm enthraled by English fics):

1)Condom-conscious. Sometimes they don't use even lubricant agent. Why? -Because the bottom's body often works well like woman's one! Such a marvel of nature, or a slash magic. :O

2)Nicely witty pillow talk during or after the sex. Reluctantly Japanese language is not for this kind of conversation, in other words we have no culture to create the romantic atmosphere using words.

3)Power struggle between two men. Since sex roles are fixed, there's no need to struggle anymore. Once the one accepts the other, ta-dah no problems, just simply do what they should do next. :P

4)Well-detailed objective physical description during the sex. Comparatively, in Japanese fics the description is more subjective and the mental aspect is more emphasized, e.g., Viggo's hands did brabra and it made Sean feel brabrabra then he became brabrabrabrabra.


It's interesting that an author likely to be familiar with overseas fics or novels seems to have a tendency to write her VigBean in very "overseas manner" in some ways: objective descriptions, witty conversations swinging between friendship and romance, power struggle in physical/mental aspects, or there is a some kind of atmosphere which overseas fics often have. I wonder if other non-native English readers feel the same impression when they read VigBean written in English and their own languages.

Through LJ-VigBean I've started to feel the world much closer to me. I actually feel that people can share their feelings and emotions beyond the age, cultures and countries. The differences let me see my own culture in a fresh light, and that became a new motivation for learning English, though the most biggest driving power is to read VigBean things written in English... I'm such a slash girl. ;)

Well, my rambling writing is going to finish now. Hope this my first "essay challenge" works well, and it answers elintirn's questions properly.

Thank you for staying with me to read whole article, I do appreciate your tolerance for my messy writing cordially!
*greeting nicely just in case there are some to read this article*

Comments

[danichatterley.livejournal.com]

You are making me feel soooo jealous curious about the Japanese fandom! It's a pity I can't read kanji! >_<' Fancy translating some MameMo? ;D I'm also curious about the dojinshi...
Anyway, thanks for the explanation, I really enjoyed it!

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Thank you for reviewing, dani! I'm very glad to hear you enjoyed my work. :) Reluctantly all Japanese slash-fandoms are going on underground because it's illegal under the current copyright law in Japan. Thus it would be difficult to get dojinshi if you live in out of Japan and don't speak Japanese.

BTW I added some sentences in the 4th paragraph, because I'm afraid my ex-statement would give you a misperception about Japanese VigBean fandom. Here are the corrected sentences:

Well, get back to Japanese VigBean issue, the fandom is definitely reflected this sex-roles phenomenon to a greater or lesser extent. Never get me wrong, I don't mean Viggo or Sean is always feminized when he is fixed as the bottom. Generally they both are described as well-build and matured alpha male regardless of being the top or the bottom. But I don't deny that there are some who write the top manly while the bottom, well, not manly. To me it's not the matter of how they see Viggo or Sean, but how they think the top or the bottom should be. I mean, it seems like the image for the sex roles influences on each character.

[angiepen.livejournal.com]

Thanks for that, it was really interesting. I love hearing about differences in viewpoint and assumptions and how people see the world from one country to the next, whether it's about slash or fandom or anything else. it makes a lot of sense that erotic writing would reflect the trends and assumptions of the culture producing it, and that a language would support the cultural norms of the society it comes from.

Angie

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your feedback, Angie!

it makes a lot of sense that erotic writing would reflect the trends and assumptions of the culture producing it, and that a language would support the cultural norms of the society it comes from.

Absolutely I agree! In my opinion, among Japanese slash things we could see the shadow of gender-roles-inconsistency our society have: the education has taught us the gender equality, but the traditional norms of the society makes it difficult to put them into practice, especially for the women practically. Maybe that is why the sex roles between two men are fixed in Japanese slash. Perhaps we are immature to describe how a male couple could be equally in their relationship even in the fictional world. Or simply but more likely that we just reflect our longing for romance on the characters. :)

[mooms.livejournal.com]

I found this really interesting and informative ! Thanks very much ! How lovely that your interest in reading Vigbean slash works as an incentive for learning English, although, I must say that you already express youeself very well in English.

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Thanks Moom, I'm very flattered at your words to say my English works well. :) Though it's largely attributable to my excellent dictionaries, it's always nice to know my English have made sense to others. *hugs*

[aratama.livejournal.com]

Increeeedibly interesting. As someone who got into LotRips from the Japanese fic and still read an insane amount of it, I found everything you wrote so true and fascinating!

I tend to read Vig x Bean, not so much because I'm "grossed out" by the opposite as some people are, but because I just love this Bean you describe (and pin down exactly): "bisexual, seductive, selfish, single-minded, always-needs-company". Not a lot of writers characterize him like that in English fics.

However, I also do read Bean x Vig, and that's probably what I noticed most about the Japanese VigBean fandom: as you mentioned, a lot of them read the opposite pairing, don't they? Most of them just don't write it because it'd seem weird to have both on one website. I think more of them should try it ... although I'm not so sure the readers would embrace it, haha.

One thing I noticed you didn't mention, maybe because you haven't experienced it (makes sense if you only read VigBean and no other related pairing) or didn't find it interesting enough to mention -- the "bottom" in Japanese fic is usually bottom to everyone in the fandom. It's not so much One True Pairing as One True Bottom, so to speak? So another reason I personally don't read as much Bean x Vig is that I'm just more of a Bean fan, and I don't really care to read about Viggo being the ... village bicycle.

Thank you so much for writing this!

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your feedback, Medoroa, and how clever you are!:

the "bottom" in Japanese fic is usually bottom to everyone in the fandom.

Yes, that makes great sense - I'm a kind of a person who never cares which of them comes to the top or the bottom, well, I'd prefer them to switch their roles, but DOES care who and who go with together as a pairing. Among the LOTR fondom I read VigBean mainly and a bit of KarlDavid things, but I have no doubt about your One True Pairing as One True Bottom indication! In and out of the fondom I can easily see that the bottom character is always being the bottom towards the top whoever he is in! Apart from that I should have noticed what you said - see, there we have cons for "Viggo-to-bottom fiction only" things likewise "Bean-to-bottom only" things! Moreover, when it comes to a raped episode, it was always the bottom to be raped - I've never read any fics or novels or comics which have a plot of the top-being-raped things, except only 1 episode in out of the fandom. Peculiar tendency, isn't it?

I myself started LOTRips from Bean/Vig things - back then I didn't know there were Vig/Bean things behind the door, though it hadn't took long before I winded the nice scent of Vig/Bean stuff. Now I'm enthraled by Vig/Bean, Bean/Vig and VigBean universes, where I can enjoy very different characterized Viggo and Sean in each field, and that is so wonderful, but as the same as you, I DO hope more Japanese VigBean authors start working on the opposite pairing episodes.

[aratama.livejournal.com]

see, there we have cons for "Viggo-to-bottom fiction only" things likewise "Bean-to-bottom only" things!

I know! When I tell my non-Japanese friends, they look at me as if I've turned crazy. I've noticed it probably has something to do with the tendency of many Japanese slash fans to make their favorite characer/person the bottom. Although many Japanese people might read the opposite pairing to the one they "support", I think in many fandoms (including but not limited to ours, RPS) people seem to have a strong identification with their top/bottom preference -- it's a label, a part of their personality, a clear identifier of who they are and where they belong in the fandom. It's quite fascinating, how much it actually means. I've been intrigued by the dynamics for years, so I'm really happy you opened up this can of worms. It's not the kind of meta discussion that they do a lot of in the Japanese site of fandom. (Or, at least, I haven't seen much of it. I always love it when I find any!)


P.S. 恥を忍んで言ってしまえば、私は受の人があんあん言ってる日本語スラも完全なファンタジーとしては結構好きです（笑）。ただ、みんながみんなそんなのを書いていたらつまんないなあ、とは思いますけど。

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

I half expected you were Japanese, and here, you are! *g*
Before posting this essay I hesitated for a while because I was afraid that my writing would offend some Japanese who are proud of their S/V or V/B policies. So I'm very happy to see you accept my VigBean article. :)

the tendency of many Japanese slash fans to make their favorite character/person the bottom.

That's most likely, though I don't understand why people give the bottom role to their favourite characters... Does it indicate a Japanese slasher tends to see herself in the bottom character to relive and enjoy the experience of his being loved by the top one? If so, to me it sounds like her most favourite character is the top, not the bottom. *confusing*

On the other hand, when you look at the non-fondom slash called original-fiction, which is free from the existing characters or people, you'll see not all authors let their favourite characters come to bottom. I heard often heard they say, "I love aggressive top character so I made him like this." or "I wanna read your new story, perhaps the one with a seductive selfish bottom and an encompassing but passionate top, could you?" like conversation.

Consequently, I think Japanese slashers have some kind of stereotypical or personal images of their top/bottom characters first, then when it comes to fandom things, the targeted real characters/persons are naturally adjusted to their fantasy world within the realm of their commercialized images. Or else Japanese fangirlsu unconsciously choose the real characters/persons who seem to go well with their top-and-bottom fantasy, could be.

In my case, when I read slash things including VigBean stuff, it's depend on the story or author's colour which character comes to my favourite. Moreover, I sometimes can't decide which character's side I should take. Maybe I'm a kind of easygoing reader... :P

people seem to have a strong identification with their top/bottom preference -- it's a label, a part of their personality, a clear identifier of who they are and where they belong in the fandom.

Precisely! Plus, once they steady belong to a particular pairing fandom, they seem to have a tendency to hide the fact of reading the opposite pairing stuff, particularly when they are authors. But I don't know the matter of fact actually - I'd never been in a particular fandom before VigBean things, and you know, I've always being such a "minority" fangirl in Japanese fandom!

PS.あんあんした受けが魅力的な作品ってありますよね。Altairさんへの返信で最後の方にそんなことにも触れたので、よかったらご覧下さい。あと、実は私、総称などにおける冠詞と複数形の使い方がよく分からないのです…その上前置詞の使い方もかなり怪しいんです。もしお気づきの点がありましたら、ご指摘いただけると後学の為になり助かります。m(_ _)m

[altair-dragon.livejournal.com]

the tendency of many Japanese slash fans to make their favorite character/person the bottom.
It seems so, including myself. V/S, A/B, Q/O, L/S, W/J, etc. It's always the most favorite characters of mine who should be the bottom person, though usually both of the pair I love dearly. I can't figure out why... I might want my favorites more loved and happier than anyone else, not physically but at heart It doesn't explain all of the top/bottom issue though. *sigh*


Does it indicate a Japanese slasher tends to see herself in the bottom character to relive and enjoy the experience of his being loved by the top one?
Not in my case. Not really. I know I tend to make myself empathize with each person at each of their emotional scenes. But at sex scene, well, the bottom must be the bottom, especially whenever penetration is involved. Not only the matter of power struggle or something. I know it sounds nonsense. A mystery of psychology indeed.

medoroa said, it's a label, a part of their personality, a clear identifier of who they are and where they belong in the fandom.
I agree though I feel it is more than that. It's certainly a label, but for some people, seeing some of my close friends in other fandom, it might be something close to an obsession or a phobia. They get really angry when I by chance mention something about switching sex or the reverse role of their favorite slash pairs, telling me "Please! don't you dare ever mention something like THAT in front of me! I HATE the reveres!" They can't help it. It means a LOT.
And I somehow understand the feeling. I can't read Japanese Aragorn-Bottom or Vig-Bottom yaoi stories without feeling uncomfortable. Even if I understand it's weird and unreasonable, I can't help it. *sigh*
I really envy you because it will give me the double pleasures of reading both ways if only I could enjoy them both, like I'm doing with English slash stories(^-^) At least I'm so happy I found SW slash list many years ago that was my first slash fandom and eventually led me to this V/S slash world.

Plus, once they steady belong to a particular pairing fandom, they seem to have a tendency to hide the fact of reading the opposite pairing stuff, particularly when they are authors.
That is because we know it makes some people really uncomfortable (^^;) No need to do that, really.

Sorry for long posts in my poor English. I enjoyed talking this topic so much!

medoroaさんが仰るとおり、私もあんあん受け日本やおいも、ファンタジーやギャグとしてならかなり楽しみますよ～☆面白い作品も多いですよね！ただ私の場合、プロットや文体やキャラクターが素敵でシリアスなお話しこそ、最後があんあんだったりすると興ざめしてしまったりすることがあるのですよ。根底に受けキャラにもきちんと男らしさが欲しいという願望があるからかしら…この傾向はどうにもならないので、最近はあまり日本のお話しに手を出さずに英語slash専になりつつあります；；

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

I might want my favorites more loved and happier than anyone else, not physically but at heart, it doesn't explain all of the top/bottom issue though.

I see, I could understand what you mean, and in that point it makes sense to me why people tend to their favourites bring to bottom.

But at sex scene, well, the bottom must be the bottom, especially whenever penetration is involved.

Your words gave me a hint why I want them to revers their roles in bed: I do want both of them to come as a man, in a proper way and situation as a male, to prove none of them is a substitute for a woman to each other, to assure both are equally enthraled by each masculine beauty. (hm, prove and assure to whom? -To me, and themselves! )

"Please! don't you dare ever mention something like THAT in front of me! I HATE the reveres!"

Wow, that's surprisingly! Is that a common response among the people who don't like the sex-role-reversal things? Considering myself, I don't have a friend to share my slash fantasy in RL. Since living in Japan I have a lot of chance to get information about slash fandoms, the small window of my computer is my only tool to get along with VigBean mate and its universe. I envy you for having slash friends around you, indeed.

we know it makes some people really uncomfortable (^^;) No need to do that, really.

Precisely! I'll keep that in my mind!!

あんあん受けがその作品にぴったりなキャラクターだったら、私は結構平気かなぁ…でもその受けに役者本人が投影されることはないです。私もAltairさんと同じく、ロマンチックな場面やベッドで突然言動が女性化（または幼稚化）する受けは苦手です。そういう受けのあんあん場面はほとんどすっ飛ばしてコトが終わったあたりから再読します。VigBeanに限らず、なんでもそうかな。（作者さん渾身の場面かもしれないのに…ごめんなさい。）

[aratama.livejournal.com]

I hesitated for a while because I was afraid that my writing would offend some Japanese who are proud of their S/V or V/B policies.

I understand completely. I love meta discussions like these, and I've been dying to discuss Japanese fandom with people for a long while, but I was always too afraid of making a post like yours in public, so I've kept most of it to IMs with friends. I'm really happy you decided to post your thoughts. (Since I'm chickenshit.)

For instance, I've been wanting to write a long dissertation on the whole "secret codes" of the names ... mostly because I find it so endlessly amusing. (For instance, it took me weeks to figure out why 公 was 公. I'm just stupid like that. I only figured it out when I happened to re-read 動物のお医者さん.)

Does it indicate a Japanese slasher tends to see herself in the bottom character to relive and enjoy the experience of his being loved by the top one?

As altair_dragon wrote below, I don't think that's the case at all. Rather the opposite. I've noticed this increasingly in m/m fandom in the last ten or so years (or maybe I didn't notice it before though it was always there), that the writer wants to ... well, pardon my language, but grow a dick and fuck their favorite character themselves, but they can't so they find a lot of "top" characters to do it for them. The point is not in feminizing the character (although that's often found to be the outcome), but rather in the writer wanting to take an active part in wooing their object of fancy. Which logically leads to, well, penetration. As altair_dragon said, penetration is even more important in Japanese slash than it is in English slash, which makes sense since penetration is taking the "active" sex role to the extreme.

If you don't have this mentality and you're in it for the pairing and its specific dynamics, I understand why you wouldn't feel at home reading Japanese fic. I really do. I don't think all Japanese slash fans feel like the above, by the way; it's just a description of a trend I've personally noticed a lot. But on the other hand, most people also do seem to want their top (the active guy) to live up to their own standards for what a good man is, so it's probably a complex dual identification (with both the top and the bottom). The One True Bottom tendency does however make me think that "wanting to fuck the bottom" is a stronger urge with most than "wanting a good man to top".

Consequently, I think Japanese slashers have some kind of stereotypical or personal images of their top/bottom characters first, then when it comes to fandom things, the targeted real characters/persons are naturally adjusted to their fantasy world within the realm of their commercialized images.

I agree completely. It does seem like (at least for some people, sometimes) people go out and look for characters or people who seem "bottom-ish" by their own standards. But you know, it's not so much different from how regular people come to have favorite actors and characters; they have a certain "type" that they like, and when they find someone who confirms to this type, they come to like that someone. With slash, it's just that this "type" includes things like, uhm, "wow, he sure looks like he could bottom". Which is an odd criteria for fancying someone, but probably no odder than "wow he has such pretty blond hair". Maybe? It's still sort of odd. *g*

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

I'm very relieved to know the essay is also acceptable to some Japanese! On the other hand, I wouldn't have worked on it if I had had to write it in Japanese for Japanese slashers, because sometimes Japanese tend to be too much emotional when they exchange their opinions concerning their likes and tastes, and I didn't want to carry the issue emotional way.

I've been wanting to write a long dissertation on the whole "secret codes" of the names ...

That must be another interesting theme, you should do that! When I first came into the RPS fandom in Japan, I was puzzled by why a certain Kanji(Chinese character) was used to indicate a certain person: I would wondered why European actors had their own particular Kanji names each.
Please make a post and share it when you write about them. :)

The point is not in feminizing the character (although that's often found to be the outcome), but rather in the writer wanting to take an active part in wooing their object of fancy.

penetration is even more important in Japanese slash than it is in English slash, which makes sense since penetration is taking the "active" sex role to the extreme.

Hhmm... very clever, very interesting, very convincing statements I've ever heard! Your theory convinced me very much of why the Japanese writer casts her favourite person as the bottom character in her productions. Then the readers who share the same fantasy follow her slash works, and that makes the current unique situation of two camps in one fandom, doesn't it?

After reading your theory I took a close look at myself and considered how I am taking part in the stream, because I'm oh-so crazy about both Vig/Bean and Bean/Vig equally in Japan, that I wondered how your theory works in my case. Here the result: my slash fantasy doesn't work in that way.

Actually, during my m/m reading history for the last almost 20 years, I've never fancied dominating to the characters/persons who come to bottom either in or out of bed. At a subconscious level? - I don't know. Could be so. But as far as in my memory, I never. Instead, my concern/fantasy about slash things is always clear: how alpha males fall in love? How they accept their own emotions? How they accept each other as a lover? How they deal with the power struggle, mentally and physically? How well their mental aspects detailed? And how well the plot/story is build?

You said: I don't think all Japanese slash fans feel like the above, but in traditional Japan slash culture, it's quite difficult to find a m/m stuff I really want to read, regardless of fandom or non-fandom. But it never means I hate the Japanese style slash - it sounds paradoxical, but I do love Japanese VigBean and other non-fandom ones, I can enjoy the romance of a manly-top and a not-manly-bottom, I just sometimes - often - can't be entirely satisfied with them. And that's why I have to stroll around both Vig/Bean and Bean/Vig camps, and am so enthraled by European VigBean fandom.

most people also do seem to want their top (the active guy) to live up to their own standards for what a good man is, so it's probably a complex dual identification (with both the top and the bottom).

I second! So here in Japanese fandom I can fancy GoodManTop!Viggo and GoodManTop!Sean, and I must say it's a perfectly blissful moment!

Well, talking about the "looking for a bottom-ish person/character," it is what I don't know how to deal with. Maybe it's for my luck for imagination - I really can't imagine a couple for FPS or RPS by myself until someone establishes it. So I always adore the people who create a slash couple from films or actual persons. It's a kind of giftie I've never had. :O

時間切れなのでもう一方へのコメントはまた後ほど投稿します。

[aratama.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, I wouldn't have worked on it if I had had to write it in Japanese for Japanese slashers, because sometimes Japanese tend to be too much emotional when they exchange their opinions concerning their likes and tastes, and I didn't want to carry the issue emotional way.

*nods* If anyone had written something like this in public in Japanese, they'd probably have chosen to do it anonymously, at the very least. It's such a huge contrast from this side of the language barriere.

Actually, during my m/m reading history for the last almost 20 years,

You beat me! (Well, actually, not if you count my watching Patalliro in grade school. I wonder if that counts.)

Instead, my concern/fantasy about slash things is always clear: how alpha males fall in love? How they accept their own emotions? How they accept each other as a lover? How they deal with the power struggle, mentally and physically? How well their mental aspects detailed? And how well the plot/story is build?

Those are all very interesting questions, and ones I love to read about in slash fiction, too. It seems to me what you actually like is the conflicts and psychological dramas like those in the classic shonen-ai mangas, just with adult alpha men? There really should be more of that.

I really can't imagine a couple for FPS or RPS by myself until someone establishes it.

Really? That's a bit sad -- if you could make up your own pairings, you could choose two perfectly alpha males and build your own fandom around them, characterize them and write them to your heart's content. I personally find that that's half the fun of fanfic (the other half is sharing these fantasies with others, of course). But I must admit that does sometimes leave me in a "minor" position, too. If no one agrees with what you thought up, there's nothing sadder!

The below are answers to some other comments you made, but ...

きっとアラゴルンの髪型が海草の藻みたいだからだわ。

か、かわいい！その勘違い最高です！

あと、とても男性的な男性が自分の男性性をまげて同性を受け入れる、というのがスラッシュにおける私の萌えツボです。

ですよねえ・・・。だから受の人が普段がら受々しいとダメなんですよねえ。

BTW can I quote your theory to answer the question, which is about the dominance relation between Vig/Bean and Bean/Vig in Japan, made by rotpunkt and elintirn?

Sure, go right ahead! There's really no need to ask.

Also, about your comment to rotpunkt ... if you guys ever have a chat again where you discuss meta stuff like this, invite me? （うわっ、図々しい。）

I'm as earger as the others to know what you come up with as to the sizes of the VigBean and BeanVig fandoms. I tend to think VigBean is bigger, but who knows??? Maybe one could look at the sizes of the only events. There used to be a Mo Search but I think it went down, and the Mame Search is (sadly) pretty much dead.

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Hello Medoroa, I'm I didn't reply you sooner. I have dry eyes problem these years and I stopped using computer during last week. Plus I'm quite busy to keep up with some my favourite VigBean fics, and it took time to come back here! :P

Well, actually, not if you count my watching Patalliro in grade school. I wonder if that counts.
If I count Patalliro I have to add another 4 or 5 years to my m/m career. Until you mentioned that I have no idea about Patalliro is a slash comic, but yes, Tamanegis are gays and Maraihi (whom I believed a woman for a while) and Bancoran are gay couple! :D

It seems to me what you actually like is the conflicts and psychological dramas like those in the classic shonen-ai mangas
Could be. Before I started reading slash I used to read Mari and Shingo, Kaze to Ki no Uta, Touring Express　and Jack and Elena series, without thinking they are kind of gay-themed comics. I think my taste of slash is under the influence of them. But this topic is far from VigBean issue, so I stop going farther.

if you guys ever have a chat again where you discuss meta stuff like this, invite me?
Why not? Right now it seems that I'm the only Japanese to make a post about Japanese VigBean, so if you join the discussion again, we can share much fairer opinions and it would be good not only for people who are interested in Japanese VigBean culture, but also for us to recognize anew our own slash culture.

[aratama.livejournal.com]

Or else Japanese fangirlsu unconsciously choose the real characters/persons who seem to go well with their top-and-bottom fantasy, could be.

Could be! But sometimes they also seem surprised to like a certain character when the character doesn't fall into their usual "type", too. It's all fluid and not that rigorously set, I think.

In my case, when I read slash things including VigBean stuff, it's depend on the story or author's colour which character comes to my favourite. Moreover, I sometimes can't decide which character's side I should take. Maybe I'm a kind of easygoing reader... :P

You aaaaaaaaare! You're not at all like the people altair_dragon describe, who go mad when people mention some pairing they don't like. I like that. It's refreshing. And what I find I really like about Japanese VigBean, compared to other fandoms I've been in, is that people usually don't go berserk when they see the opposite, although it still does happen. I think maybe it has to do with the fans being older, but who knows? "One True Bottom" is so much like the "One True Pairing" of the English fandom, it's not at all funny. People going crazy over OTPs are so ... um, lame.

Plus, once they steady belong to a particular pairing fandom, they seem to have a tendency to hide the fact of reading the opposite pairing stuff, particularly when they are authors.

Oh, so true. It's like they're afraid of alienating their readers.



総称などにおける冠詞と複数形の使い方がよく分からないのです…その上前置詞の使い方もかなり怪しいんです。

うわあ、高校以来見たことも聞いたこともない単語の羅列だあ・・・（笑）。 I don't actually write English thinking about much of the grammar, I'm sorry. With 総称, do you mean like "fandom" and "VigBean"? I didn't notice you using those wrongly! Maybe if you could give me a specific example ... 前置詞 is one of the hardest things to get, I think, and in my case, one of the very last things I came to grasp (I still make so many mistakes with them, it's not funny). It's mostly about recognizing a pattern for each one of them and just ... getting used to it. I'm still always aware that I'm no good with using them, so when I'm writing a serious text, I look half of them up. You'll remember them gradually. That's no help at all, I know!

Also, I talk too much. So much that I had to cut this comment up. I'm so sorry! But I've been wanting to talk about this for ages.

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

what I find I really like about Japanese VigBean, compared to other fandoms I've been in, is that people usually don't go berserk when they see the opposite, although it still does happen. I think maybe it has to do with the fans being older, but who knows

Oh, I've heard about that. Most recently ayui said exactly the same thing. I don't understand why people get so upset when they hear about the opposite-positioning issue... it's the matter of individuals tastes,　and I don't care who gets into what, would rather to know in what point she's attracted by: e.g., neither Femslash!VigBean nor Het!VigBean are my favourites, but I'm very curious about why they have to transform one or both of Viggo and Sean into their opposite sex.


うわあ、高校以来見たことも聞いたこともない単語の羅列だあ・・・（笑）。

I started learning English in my late teens and until recently I didn't pay much attention to the grammatical points, that 総称 or 冠詞 is something quite new terms for me. Anyway, I'm now very eager to study the correct usage of English grammar, but what the grammar book says is sometimes slightly abstract for me to understand what I want to know. So I appreciate your kindness from my heart. :)

Well, I have difficulty in dealing with the usage of 総称名詞 and 冠詞. And... and, well, it's also a quite hard work to explain what I don't understand in the target language! Let me see, I'll give you the examples in the following quotes. The bold words are the points:

(#1)...why the Japanese writer casts her favourite person as the bottom character in her productions.

With #1, both the should be a instead?

Or is it possible to say like this?:
(#2)...why Japanese writers cast their favourite person as a bottom character in their productions.

Plus, person in #1 and 2# should be persons?

And here:
(#3)...So I always adore the people who create a slash couple from films or actual persons.

In the case #3, do I need the before "people"? And a slash couple should be slash couples?

Well, I know it's awfully stupid habit to stick such the or a or s issue, but They are always baffling me and I can't help it. Hope my questions wouldn't baffle you either! (Baffle, a new word I've learned how to use at Baffled by elintirn. *g*)

I know here is not a place to ask such a question - I promise I'll never do this again here. Thank you for your tolerance to all who are reading this column!

こんなところでこんな話題を振って申し訳ありません…お言葉に甘えて質問させていただきました。でもVigBeanとは関係のない話題なので、これっきりにします。m(_ _)m

BTW can I quote your theory to answer the question, which is about the dominance relation between Vig/Bean and Bean/Vig in Japan, made by rotpunkt and elintirn?

しかも何度も再投稿して本当に申し訳なく…煩わせてごめんなさい。

[aratama.livejournal.com]

I'll try the grammar first, before it gets too late and my brain turns to mush.

(#1)...why the Japanese writer casts her favourite person as the bottom character in her productions.

これは the Japanese writer, (the) Japanese writers, a Japanese writer のどれでも（少なくともこの文脈では）「一般的に言った日本人の物書きさん」の意味になるので、いいと思います。ただ、"the Japanese writer" は少し古い用法な感じかな（論文とかで出そう）。あと、そうですね、"Japanese writers" だと "her favourite" じゃなくて "their favourite" になりますね。"persons" もいいと思います。"person" で充分ですが。

"the bottom character" の the は必須です。しかし "cast as a bottom"（"character" 抜きで）はアリだと思います。前者は「その人の書いたフィクの受のキャラ」で、意味がかなり特定されているので文法も特定。後者は "bottom character" じゃなくて "bottom" なら、「受キャラ」と言う特定なものから離れてもっと一般的な「受全般」の意味になるので。

多分（笑）。むずかしいです！

(#3)...So I always adore the people who create a slash couple from films or actual persons.

In the case #3, do I need the before "people"? And a slash couple should be slash couples?

いりません。あっても間違いではないですが、"I always adore people" は正しいです（そして多分より一般的・・・かな。"the people" は「国民」「民族」の意味が強いので）。ここは "persons" でなく "people" でいいと思います。"people" の方が一般的。ここも "a slash couple" とは書いても、文脈から一般的な話だと分かるので、上の "a Japanese writer" と同じように "a" でも大丈夫です。

I know "a" and "the" are big issues when teaching Japanese people English, but I learned English at foreign universities among people who spoke Indo-European languages as their mother tongue, so it was never anything I learned very much grammar about. I'm probably not helping much; I'm so sorry. For what it's worth, I think you're English is very easy to understand and I also think it has improved so much since I first saw you around this community (oops, did that sound stalker-ish?).

(Did you know that another language which doesn't use "a", "the", or even the plural noun is Russian?)

I'll get back to your other comments in a little bit. Although I'm sure you're tired of listening to me by now. *g*

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Oops, I meant:

Thank you all for your tolerance for my language-school-ish column at VigBean fandom!

[altair-dragon.livejournal.com]

はじめまして。横から失礼します～。
下のnanaさんへのコメントにも書きましたが、私もあんあん日本語スラ、ファンタジーとして楽しみますよ～☆ある意味、日本語にしか出せないエロさというのも確かにありますよね(笑）

[aratama.livejournal.com]

こんにちは～。横スレ全然オッケーですよ、LJって日本から見れば完全無礼講なのが大好きなんです。

あんあんスラ（すごい総称を付けてしまいましたね・笑）、慣れるとかなり面白いしエロいと思います、私は。特に受の方が男っぽい人の場合（豆とか）、反動的に更に色っぽい事もあると。普段からナヨナヨしてる受は苦手なんですけど。花とか、受として書かれている場合普段から可愛い系と言うか、女の子っぽいキャラに設定されてしまって（これは日本語でも英語でもそう！）、個人的には興ざめします。やはり自分はそのギャップがないと駄目かもしれません。

まあ、いかにも受な受の需要は多分大きくて、広い目で見れば豆とか藻とかを受にしたがる私達の方が変なんでしょうが（笑）。

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

最初にMedoroaさんから戴いたコメントへのレスになりますが：
(For instance, it took me weeks to figure out why 公 was 公. I'm just stupid like that. I only figured it out when I happened to re-read 動物のお医者さん.)

うふ。私はヴィゴが藻と表記される理由気づくのに、１年半かかりました。点とか線ならわかるけど、なんで藻なのかしら～と真剣に考えたあげく、結論は「きっとアラゴルンの髪型が海草の藻みたいだからだわ。他の役者に比べてネーミングのされ方が今一婉曲で腑に落ちないけど…。」ある日ふと真実に気づいたときの、自分のアホさ加減に対する驚愕といったら！(>o<)!!!

あと、とても男性的な男性が自分の男性性をまげて同性を受け入れる、というのがスラッシュにおける私の萌えツボです。この嗜好がなかったら私は、きっと豆と藻のフィクには魅力を感じなかったなんじゃないかな。

[altair-dragon.livejournal.com]

そうですね、無礼講。日本と違って、議論することが当然の国民性を感じます。

やはり自分はそのギャップがないと駄目かもしれません。
私も同感です！普段男っぽい…というより、strictなイメージを持つ人が堪え切れずに乱れる姿にたまらない色気を感じてしまうんです☆実は豆の場合も、日本人である私が持つ英国人という偏見イメージ（頑固、保守的、一見怖め)とのギャップが、想像力をかきたてた大きなポイントでした。
花（と豆とか藻とか）は、歳が大きく離れた若い受けは、自分は苦手みたいです。その場合、同じ理由で年上受けの方が萌えます(笑)花受けの多さを考えると、確かに私たちの方がマニアックかもしれないですね～(^^)

p.s.私も、普段日本のHP巡りをしないので、イベントに行くまで役者の略語を知りませんでした(笑)花豆？血豆？藻豆？何それ、おいしい…？と、人には聞くに聞けずにうろうろした覚えがあります(^^)気付いたときには目から鱗☆

[aratama.livejournal.com]

ですよねー。私は議論大好き人間なので（大学とかでかなりウザがられました・・・）、英語でネットするのほんとーに性に合ってます。

実は豆の場合も、日本人である私が持つ英国人という偏見イメージ（頑固、保守的、一見怖め)とのギャップが、想像力をかきたてた大きなポイントでした。
分かります！豆って本人がギャップのかたまりみたいな人間でもありますよね～。面白いったらありゃしないです。

花（と豆とか藻とか）は、歳が大きく離れた若い受けは、自分は苦手みたいです。
これも全く同感です。なんだか花が若すぎて、受にしちゃうとちょっと、藻とか豆ってショタコン・・・？みたいに思ってしまいます（ごめんなさい！すみません！書いてる人はそんなつもり全くないって分かってるんですけど！）。

私は一時期あの略称をいちいちメモして、分からないのがあると友人に「ねえねえ、これなんだと思う？」と聞いて回るウザイ女でした・・・。

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

豆って本人がギャップのかたまりみたいな人間でもありますよね～。面白いったらありゃしないです。
激しく同感です！私は彼のギャップを知るにつれ彼のファン度を深めていきました。独特の強面系美形っぷりに対して名前があんなにシンプルというのも好きなところです。

これも全く同感です。なんだか花が若すぎて、受にしちゃうとちょっと、藻とか豆ってショタコン・・・？
右に同じ！私の場合は、彼と男性的な魅力（雄っぽさというかセクシーさとかフェロモンというか）が結びつかないので、スラッシュキャラとしての魅力をあまり感じません。美青年だとは思うんですけど…。

私は英語で議論するのは始めてなのですが、好き嫌いをはっきり言っても憎まれないし、自分の意見を言うときに必要以上の気を廻さなくていいので、気分的には楽だなぁと感じています。読んで書くのは大変ですが！脳味噌をぎゅうう～って雑巾絞りしている感じです。

それから、aとtheへの回答をありがとうございました。ものすごく分かりやすくて腑に落ちました！毎回文法書を読んでは混乱を深めていたのですが、やはり自分が好きな分野で好きな話題についての解説だと、分かりやすさが身に染みるというか…。教えていただいたことを心がけて今後の英作に取り組みたいと思います。本当にありがとうございました！英文で投稿するとまた他の方々の目に障るかもしれないので、ここでお礼の言葉を述べさせていただきます。

[makamu]

A very nice article, Nana! It reminded me in many ways of the time when I used to hang out in various anime fandoms (Weiß Kreuz, Angel Sanctuary by Yuuki Kaori, among others)

I remember most of the stuff you describe and I find it interesting how many of the respective seme's qualities are actually there in my characterization where the position is very fluid...

The only thing that surprised me was the independence of the two sides from each other, because that is something that does not make sense to me at all.

Very interesting and I am glad that VigBean helped you find a way to use your (very good!) English

Arigato gozaimasu, Nana-san *bows* :)

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Thank you for leaving your comment, Makamu. :)

The only thing that surprised me was the independence of the two sides from each other, because that is something that does not make sense to me at all.

Likewise the thing made me surprised a lot was that there is only 1 fondom in LJ-VigBean! *lol* But non-fixed-roles phenomenon in overseas fics makes a great sense to me and I feel it more comfortable with it, because for long time I can't be satisfied myself with the idea of "One True Pairing as One True Bottom" (apt phrase!) - yes, I'm a minority who prefer the bottom not to behave like a woman in any situation. Though I admit there is some kind of charming in fixed-roles characters depending on the stories (or the author's skill of storytelling IMO), what I want to read in slash is the mental and physical power struggle between two men and how they build up their relationship. Only in that point Japanese fics make me disappointed.

BTW two camps in one fandom is very common in Japan. If you see the name of one fandom there should be the counterpart, e.g., Vig/Orli vs Orli/Vig, Aragorn/Boromia vs Boromia/Aragorn. In a way it's nonsense, but then it's not so bad - because you can enjoy two patterns of quite different universes eventually! ;)

Dou i tashi mashi te, sorekara toukou wo arigatou gozaimashita! (You're welcome, and thank you again for your feedback!)

[alex-quine.livejournal.com]

This is a very interesting insight into a world that is closed to the majority of VigBean readers and writers. Thankyou for letting us have the benefit of your insight. You've clearly thought hard about this.

I've been looking for as wide a variety of illustrations of the pairing as I could find on the net, from Theban Band outward and would be interested to know whether there are illustrated Vig/Bean tales that I can access. I have found a couple of Aragorn/Boromir 'rodent' illustrations and also an intriguing one of Sean/Viggo/Orlando as schoolgirls, but if you know of others I would be most grateful for links.

Many thanks - and other readers are right - your English is very good.

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your comments, Alex!

Well, actually to arrange my thoughts was not hard thing but to put them into English was a quite big job for me. xO
Thus I'm very happy to see you liked my essay very much. :)

Talking about the link thing, I know some good VigBean fanart websites in Japan, but I'm afraid I can't tell you their URLs because they are all operated underground: reluctantly slash fandom activities are not following the current copyright law in Japan.

But it would be not bad to tell you a LJ page operated by Japanese VigBean fanartist - here: jommy. <>

When you visit her place, please keep in mind two points:
1)not to use her artworks without her permission, and
2)not to open any of information you get at her place in public, e.g. at your LJ, without her permission.

[alex-quine.livejournal.com]

Many thanks Nana. I'd found a little of Jommy's work before but didn't know how to find her website. Rest assured that I'll treat the work with the respect due.

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Bon voyage!

[altair-dragon.livejournal.com]

Long time! I've just came home from the summer holidays.
Good job, Nana! As a Japanese who has loved English slash stories for years, it was interesting for me to read your essay.

Japanese slashers fond of such a top-and-bottom-fixed tradition
I take it this would be one of the most obvious traits of Japanese slashers, including me(^^). VigBean is my RPS-OTP and I am such a Sean-bottom person. Ah, I have inherited that certain habit that I can't imagine I would ever have a look at Vig-bottom-"Japanese"-yaoi-stories. Strangely enough, when I read "English" VigBean slash, neither bottom-Vig nor switching bothers me that much, though I still prefer Bean-bottom.

As you said, the stories show us the cultures and customs.
I feel that the characters think and behave like rather Japanese in Japanese slashs while they do like western people in English ones. Like too shy Sean in yaoi, or candlelight for a romantic night or the concept of punishment in English slash brabrabra. This is why I love to read English slashs. Both Vig and Sean are not Japanese so I'm craving for seeing them behaving like they might really do.

And one more thing I feel difficult to deal with in Japanese VigBean is;
Many yaoi writers in Japan seem to like making the bottom person too feminine, especially making them moan with women language in Japanese. Well, I just don't find them sexy at all when coming from Sean or Vig, I really like love scene from English slash better most of the time. They speak the same words in English(^-^)
Thank you for updating this!


あと、私も総受け苦手です(笑)急いで書いたので、上の英文おかしかったらごめんなさい；

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Been a while, and how was your holiday? Glad to know the essay makes sense to you a Japanese slasher too. *phew*

VigBean is also my RPS-OTP, too, though I never mind which of them comes to the top or the bottom. Since none of them is should be top or bottom character to me, I can perfectly make myself dig into each pairing situation when I read Japanese VigBean things. But the situation I feel the most comfortable with is definitely LJ-style VigBean - they keeps their intimacy as being they are, very alpha, matured sexy men.

I feel that the characters think and behave like rather Japanese in Japanese slashes while they do like western people in English ones.

That's right, Alter, and that applies to the other fondom things, right? The thing you've pointed out is what I hadn't reckoned until I met VigBen written in English. Without knowing other world people never truly learn what their owns is like. Incidentally, that is why I couldn't write my first VigBean fic in Japanese despite my effort to do so: I couldn't - well, should say can't because I'm yet working on the second one - figure out well how they speak and behave in Japanese! It's funny that I have a quite certain and various VigBean images come from Japanese fics, but VigBean as my own characters is never established in Japanese language. :(

especially making them moan with women language in Japanese. Well, I just don't find them sexy at all when coming from Sean or Vig, I really like love scene from English slash better most of the time.

*LOL* I second you! Some says that a love scene in English slash is too much physical and real-size that there is no romantic essence, but I don't think so. I don't know where the hell it comes from that such a effeminate or childish stereotype of the bottom person, but I swear it is widely seen in any kind of slash relationship whether it is fondom thing or not. Really, really weird phenomenon, I think.

But, you know, how much the bottom is described as feminine, that never can be the bothersome point as far as the plot is excellent and the story is interesting and the characters themselves are solidly established to go with its own world. And I always love to read that kind of stories. ;)

[rotpunkt.livejournal.com]

Thank you for that great essay, I was totally fascinated to read it - also thank you to elintirn that she asked you, I wanted to ask you the same since a long time...!
I like the power struggle of two alpha males and though I prefer Viggo a slightly more dominant, I don't like fixed roles at all. Even more, I don't like either of them bottoming for others, so the one-true-bottom concept would really be hard to take for me. But I find it very, very interesting.
Because, it seems like such a contradiction: women choose to write about two men. Why? The reason that seems to be most logical to me is that they want to have to equals in a relationship, and that they can better identify with a man, because men are supposed to be strong and "active" in sex, and if a woman wants to be so, she has to identify with a man.
But then, they feminise one of them and make him the constant bottom (= substitute for a woman). I wonder why one should choose men in the first place, when one of them gets to play the woman anyway...
As you say, the fandom probably reflects the role of women in the Japanese society a lot - on the other hand, there are also stories in English that feminise one character.
Thinking about it, it seems even more strange to this with Viggo or Sean (to feminise one of them, I mean), because it would be easier to choose a young feminine boy to feminise... I wonder whether the thrill might exactly be to feminise a man who is a strong manly man... in this case, my theory would lead to the assumption that there are more Vig/Bean storties than Sean/Vig stories (because in traditional standards Sean is the macho bloke). Therefore, I'm curious to hear: are the two fandoms equally big or is one of them bigger? On the whole, are there more stories with Viggo as top or with Sean? What do you think?
Thanks again for your thoughts and explanations! It was really great to read and the sentence with "Viggo's hands did brabra..." should be used in a story...:) !

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Thanks Rotpunkt! Who prompted me to work on this essay was elintirn, but it was you to let me reckon that our slash culture is quite different to overseas one(s). I sometimes talk about the One-True-Bottom issue in Japanese VigBean with ayui and bittercaramel on the Internet chat, because we are the Vig/Bean-Bean/Vig-minded party, so some mentions above well reflects what we used to talk, though they are entirely biased by my own subjectivity before they typed out as the statements.

the one-true-bottom concept would really be hard to take for me.

I understand you, because even to me the concept sounds a bit weird. I do love both Vig/Bean and Bean/Vig things and there are some adorable authors I always keep up with their whole posted fics and publishments, but even while I am reading them I cannot help but wondering: Why does Viggo naturally take a role as a bottom without any discussion? What does Sean think about always to be topping towards Viggo? How come they seem to have no idea of switching their roles? and so on.

In Japanese VigBean it is well described the mental struggle, but mostly the point emphasized is individual inner struggle such as "Am I gay?" or "Should I tell him my heart or not?" things. There you'll hardly see the interactive struggle between them to build up their relationship as a couple, I mean, only few authors refer to the conflicts of which should dominate to the other or control the matter they are dealing with. Actually they need not come up against in that point: to head up them is mainly the top's concern, the bottom just accepts and follows him. Thus, their relationship goes over the manner of heterosexual ones, well, in my very personal POV.

However, Japanese authors are generally very excellent at describing the characters emotional aspects, I assure! When I read a fic I absolutely enjoy tracing their feelings and emotions at each stage of their intimate development.

it seems even more strange to this with Viggo or Sean (to feminise one of them, I mean), because it would be easier to choose a young feminine boy to feminise...

A young feminine boy... like Orli? *g*
Only once I tried reading some Vig/Orli stuff to expand my slash range, and what I found was Orli was too young girlie character for me to play with slash fandom. For years I've had a tendency to be attracted to the romance between matured alpha males. I don't know why - but I do. Maybe for the power struggle, maybe for the forbidden romance. More aged they are, the more risks they take to go together, you know. Likely I want to enjoy the tense and romance between coequal persons in mentally, physically and socially, and VigBean seems to be a well-balanced couple in this regard to me.

Well, have you read the comment by medoroa and altair_dragon above? They have a quite good point about why Japanese slashers tend to fond of One-True-Pairing as One-True-Bottom. You should read them if you haven't yet.

are the two fandoms equally big or is one of them bigger? On the whole, are there more stories with Viggo as top or with Sean? What do you think?

I'm eager to respond to the mission, please wait for the report of the investigation! ;)

[elintirn.livejournal.com]

Hey Nana,

Thanks so much for putting in such a thoughtful and detailed response to my questions! Sorry I haven't replied till now, but I've been away for a few days. You expressed yourself very eloquently and most certianly did answer everything! You've certainly gotten interest from a lot of people on the subject - which indicates just how well you did write it! A lot of my own thoughts and questions have already been addressed by others, but just out of curiosity - it's a question somebody has already asked - but which is bigger in terms of fandom - VigBean or BeanVig?

Obviously I havent read any Japanese slash but how you've described the "overseas" slash is all very familiar to the stuff I read and indeed write. I found the "charactersation" of the 2 men depending on whether they were top or bottom to be particularly interesting!

Thanks again for yoru time and effort on this!

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Thank you Elin, and I'm so happy to hear my report meets your questions. :) And thank you for your all-time-warmth towards my writing things: since making a post on LJ is my only opportunity to use English in conversation - though they are all written stuff, I think it's a kind of conversation, like a time-lagged Net chat - I'm always worried about my manner of English usage. But whenever I damn myself, you and other VigBean mates give me nicely feedbacks then that makes me cheer-up and head on to the next posting stuff.

which is bigger in terms of fandom - VigBean or BeanVig?

Mmm, it depends on which side you'll take a look at: a fandom size or their activity condition. I'm thinking about making another post to go with this theme, because I have an idea seems to "prove" the result objectively - you know, I want to be fair as possible as I can when I work on this kind of delicate matter. What a shame is that my summer holiday is over and I have to dig into my RL-ish stuff instead of VigBean issue! *pouts*

I found the "charactersation" of the 2 men depending on whether they were top or bottom to be particularly interesting!

About this issue, medoroa, altair_dragon and I had a kind of meta discussion at medoroa's thread above. She has a keen insight on Japanese slash tendency and her theory is worth reading, if you haven't try yet!

[rifleman-s.livejournal.com]

That was extremely interesting. Also fascinating to know there are two different Japanese fandoms for Vig/Bean and Bean/Vig - depending simply on positioning during love-making!

I'm really glad you felt you could share your thoughts with us and I think you summed it up perfectly when you said "I actually feel that people can share their feelings and emotions beyond the age, cultures and countries."

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Thank you for reviewing, and I'm glad to hear the theme got interest from you. :) The first surprise a Japanese slasher got first when she makes a debut in European slash fandom is: No way! Why they exchange their positioning in bed!!!??? But no wonder that most of Japanese slashers take it for granted that m/m means top/bottom, unless they have a prior information. Er? In my case? Of course I was surprised a lot, with much Yey!-go!-do-it-more! kinds of fanfare. :)

"People can share their thoughts across borders" thing is what I had known but never understood well until I took part in here LJ-VigBean fandom. I once have small experiences of making a good company with overseas people and we shared really great time, but the fellow feeling I used to have at that time is a bit different to what I have now with you slash mates. Here I feel more like that we are sharing inner, personal, vivid, delicate, rather-raw nakedness sensibility through VigBean fan fictions, without knowing or seeing each other, using some pics and written English as a only tool of communication. It's so amazing for me to be able to experience such feelings with overseas people without living in foreign country.

Well, what we are sharing is what we are wanting to show each other, so we never should say "we're sharing everything," but in terms of spiritual aspect, we are surely sharing some kind of affinity rooted in our very inner delicate part of heart, I think. Mmm, have I made myself clear?? :(

[thevixenne.livejournal.com]

I realise that I'm a little late to this conversation but I find it interesting and well worth commenting on nonetheless.

I think the one thing that we all should remember about Vig/Bean or Bean/Vig is that they are MEN. As such, naturally there would be a struggle for dominance, even if it's not overt. Personally I can't read a story where either character is made "too feminine". I feel they lose something primal.

In my own fics, many of which are BDSM-themed, I draw on a great deal of my own experiences when writing. The one very important thing that I like to stress is that even though Sean might appear to be the "bottom" man, is that it is the submissive - not the DOMINANT - who actually wields the power. It is out of love and a deep trust between the two that allows the Dominant to be the perfect "top".

I also like to switch the roles - allowing the normally dominant Viggo to be submissive. Either way, there is a sense of committment and respect that shines through.

As far as condom usage - I don't ascribe to that simply because I am writing fantasy, not reality. In real life I advocate and use condoms, but when writing, such things are not necessary. In this realm, AIDS as well as other STD's do not exist. However, I do have one big pet peeve - the use of scary substances - such as shampoo and/or hair conditioner as lubricants. Condom usage should be optional, the irritation of tender male parts is not. I can deal with saliva (it's often used in many gay male sex stories), cooking oil (but NEVER with a condom), and even body lotion (though it quickly loses its slipperyness and can contain ingredients that may irritate tender parts). I can even handle the use of no lubrication at all, especially in darker stories where there might be a reason for it.

[nanathecat.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your well-thought reviewing, Thevixenne, and am I sorry for being late to make a reply.

Personally I can't read a story where either character is made "too feminine". I feel they lose something primal.
I see what you mean. The point I always wondering when I read a Japanese slash is that the bottom's lust is strongly stick to be taken by the top. He has no idea of topping his lover - even if he is a straight and has a inner struggle to bottom, or even if he wants to love a woman to restore his solid sexuality as a man, his joy and goal of making love with his male lover is to be penetrated by his partner, while the top never thinks about being bottom. So in that point I think almost all bottom characters in Japanese slashes are somehow feminized mentally or physically - it doesn't matter of the bottom is manly or girlie, an alpha male or an adonis boy... some slashers want a manly, rough bottom to be docile in bed passively to open his body. I'm not allergic to this phenomenon at all since my slash-perspective is grown with it, but just I've been a bit fed up with such born-to-be-bottom characters for 10 years or so.

I must say I'm quite lucky to know Vig/Bean and Bean/Vig fandoms because in each fandom both guys are often described as quite manly alpha males, though the sex roles are fixed, at least they are free from being "too feminine" in many cases. :D

...is that it is the submissive - not the DOMINANT - who actually wields the power. It is out of love and a deep trust between the two that allows the Dominant to be the perfect "top".
I second! Bottoming as a fixed role is very different to allow his partner to dominate their making love, I think.

Condom usage was one of the surprising issue when I first read English VigBean. In the past I only once read a Japanese slash mentioned to the condom, however it was a story between a person with AIDS and a healthy man. In a Japanese love story you hardly see condom things whether it is a slash or not. I think it's a matter of disregard for safety sex rather than the story as a fantasy. (Actually the sex education for teenagers in Japan is badly backwards at both schools and homes. Many adults think to teach safety sex issue to children is a kind of taboo thus early-teenagers' STD have become a serious problem now, but the problem itself is a kind of taboo too...)

Oops, let me get back to the slash stuff. The reason I'm interested in condom usage in slash except for STD is that the issue of the shock death caused by anal sex without a skin. *Sorry, too far from fantasy stuff!* Well, besides that in my POV condom usage in a RPS adds a sense of reality that I like reading them using that small item. :) However I perfectly understand what you mean, I also love a slash as a fantasy and am not prickly about this issue in a writing things. In turn, I'm not prickly about lubricants issue as far as they use something safety for their bodies as you said. But the things I can't adjust myself to Japanese slashes are that the bottom's body is often got ready with love juice which naturally comes out from his anal, and that ab ovo the bottom's body gets used to accept his partner's part like a matured woman do... it's always just amazing to me.

Forgive me if I used some bad words!